Matthew: Hello, today I'm with Elena Flores in the school of education. Before we get into the topic or even discussing everything, Elena, could you just tell people a little bit about yourself, maybe less about research, but what kind of courses do you teach? What kinds of things are you involved in these days?
Elena Flores: Yes, thanks Matthew for inviting me here to have this conversation with you. I'm a professor in the counseling psychology department teaching in the marriage and family therapy program in the school counseling program. I think what I would like to let listeners know, what's relevant with our conversation today, is that I teach a multicultural counseling and multicultural psychology course for both programs. A very important foundational course where we raise issues and teach our students about counseling across cultures and counseling people from different cultures.
It's a course that raises awareness around cultural differences, biases, prejudices, and how to work cross-culturally with different ethnic groups and populations. In that vein, in teaching that course, one of the most important aspects of what I do in that course is to help students become aware of their biases and prejudices. In that context, I talk about issues of microaggressions.
I make them aware of that and how microaggressions occur and are all around us. How we can be both perpetrators of microaggressions and targets of microaggressions and what that means. This always entails what I call a difficult dialogue around issues of race, culture, power, privilege, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religious differences, et cetera.
Matthew: Let's go into that a little bit. In your own words, what the heck is a microaggression?
Elena: The definition is really important because a lot of people don't understand it. It happens all the time but people aren't aware. I think one of the biggest things about microaggressions is that people aren't aware that they're engaging in them. What they are are brief, commonplace, every day verbal, behavioral indignities, insults, offenses, whether intentional or not intentional that are communicated to other people who are different than them.
This communication can be hostile, derogatory or certainly, it's perceived as negative by the person hearing these offenses and insults. It's often regarding issues around difference, whether it be race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation and even religious beliefs.
Matthew: I know this might be a little hard, but what are some instances of microaggressions that a teacher or instructor might see in the classroom at times?
Elena: Microaggressions in terms of the classroom, happen in different ways. They happen with students making comments, bringing up questions or making comments that are offensive and insulting to other students and them not being aware of it. It also can happen-- so, between students. It also often happens from the professor. The professor indicating, making comments or statements that are offensive to students and they're not realizing it and the student is hurt and taken aback, but the student doesn't say anything and the professor doesn't realize they've done that so from teacher to student.
Of course, it can also happen from student to teacher, particularly if you're a faculty of color and you've come from a different ethnic background, sometimes what students say in the classroom can be offensive to you as the instructor so you're impacted. There's these different all kinds of interactions, ways in which microaggressions happen in the classroom. I'm going to just give you an example. Many times, White students will make a comment about an ethnic or racial group that is offensive and is perceived by that student as being racist in some form or fashion and is insulting to the student of color and the faculty person has not picked up on it.
The faculty member hasn't seen it, either, has seen it and chooses to avoid it and deny it and minimize it or hasn't seen it, sometimes hasn't heard it because interactions go on in the classroom between students that can be subtle and faculty don't pick it up but an offense and an insult has been made. The thing about these is that they impact the student. They cause emotional and psychological distress in students or in the person who's been targeted, who has felt the offense or insult. That's an example.
Another example of a microaggression that often happens is that students of color will bring up issues in the classroom around race, ethnicity, equity, injustices and what happens is that the White students begin to feel uncomfortable with that student of color. The White students may not bring up, may not respond to or interact with the student of color in the classroom when they're bringing up these issues and points but later on, what students of color often feel is some distancing from those White students in the class because things they have brought up in the class make the White students feel uncomfortable and in some cases, afraid and so they begin to distance themselves from the student of color.
They treat them differently in the class thereafter, they treat them differently in other groups, in the hallway, et cetera. The student of color can feel that difference. So now they're afraid to even bring things up, but on the one hand, they feel like they need to bring things up in the classroom. This is why it's important that faculty are aware that microaggressions don't just happen in the classroom, but the context for them can begin in the classroom and then continue outside the classroom in interactions among students either in the next class, the following class or in other aspects within the cohort of students in their lives.
Especially if we have students of color who are always bringing up the racial and cultural and equity and injustice issues in the classrooms and these issues don't get addressed by the faculty member, then that student of color feels at risk of talking about this anymore and they will often shut down but the impact has already occurred because they have brought these things up so now other students may perceive them and treat them differently.
Sometimes the professor may perceive and treat them differently because sometimes the professor either is not acknowledging and recognizing what that student of color or plural many students are bringing up in the classroom and is not addressing those issues in an appropriate manner. The discussions aren't happening that need to happen or the professor themselves sometimes is being offensive and minimizing and just giving a part answer to the student so the student feels minimized.
That's another way in which I think these microaggressions occur. What's important is the faculty member doesn't often understand that is the microaggression against a student of color. A student of color has brought up issues and those issues don't get addressed in the classroom in an appropriate manner and are avoided and denied or minimized feels offensive to the student of color. Does that make sense?
Matthew: It does. I wanted to come back to some of the things you're saying just a little bit more, but before I do, when it's a microaggression and you can see it and it's obviously aggressive or a put down in some way, that's one thing. It seems harder when the intent-- because one part of your definition that was really interesting is essentially, it doesn't matter what the intent was, it could still be a microaggression. There are some, and I don't remember all of them off the top of my head, but there are some great examples of where the speaker, they had good intent where they were trying to compliment the other person, but the result of what they said was a microaggression and I'm guilty of that myself.
I don't know, somebody saying, "Wow, you write really well for a girl" kind of thing. It's meant as a compliment, but it has this microaggression aspect to it. I'm wondering if you can talk about that when the intent is good, if you want, but it comes out in a way that's still insulting or a put down to the receiver of the information.
Elena: That's a good example, Matthew, because the examples I gave you were examples that happened in the classroom and oftentimes for students of color, the microaggressions like these may or may not happen in the classroom but you the example, you're giving is a good example where a White student or professor expresses how somebody is a credit to their race.
Mathew: Exactly.
Elena: That happens a lot actually, where Black students, in particular, are told that they're a credit to their race or students of color are asked questions about their ethnic group as if they're cultural expert to teach somebody else about their group or White professors have- another example is, they communicated to this Black student who was in our program how he resembled a Black actor.
Those things to the person conveying that is meant, is intentionally meant as a compliment. They think they're complimenting the person and here the person is offended by this, they're offended because though that kind of communication to the receiver, the impact, there's a difference between intent and impact here and this is what's really important about Microaggressions that people need to understand. That what one intended may not have the impact that was intended because to the person that hears that, particularly the student of color, the Black student in this case in these scenarios, they're not hearing a compliment.
They're hearing that, you're different; the rest of your people aren't as intelligent as you. Other Black folk like you aren't as intelligent and aren't as successful. Somehow you made it, you're an exception, you're different so you're a credit to your race, those other Black folks should be like you. If there was more Black folk like you, your people wouldn't be having the problems that they have.
That's what's heard. Is that what the White person is saying? Of course not. That's not what the White person is saying but that's what the student of color hears in the scenario, the Black student, why is that the case? This is why we need to talk about Microaggressions and the meaning of them. The Black student or student of color interprets these microaggressions in the way they do because they've heard these comments in various ways throughout their life that they were the exception.
Mathew: Saying this is not the first time.
Elena: Right. This isn't the first time that they've heard these comments or comments similar to them and they're hearing that coming from a place of stereotyping them as Black students from a Back community with the problems of the Black community.
They're hearing this as a stereotype of them, they're feeling it as a stereotype. They're not feeling this as a compliment. This is why I think all of us, not just White Americans, White students, White professors, but all of us need to understand that Microaggressions come from and are based on stereotypes, biases and prejudices that we have that go unexamined and undisclosed, that we all have.
We all have this cultural conditioning and it's based on our cultural conditioning. We all have this cultural conditioning about how we perceive African Americans, how we perceive Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, how we even perceive Caucasian Americans, the various races groups, ethnic groups of Caucasians. We're all conditioned with these stereotypes and biases and prejudices.
When we're interacting with people who are different from us and there's some uncomfortability about that difference because we don't know what to say or how to say it, we do the best we can and we will make comments like these that we think is our way of trying to get to know somebody but what it's doing it's really feeding into a stereotype about that person and from their group, does that make sense?
Mathew: It does, it makes complete sense. I think the problem that then arises is let's pretend I'm a biology instructor and I see in my class some sort of microaggression occur, what do I do? My immediate thing is-- and let's pretend I notice it, right because if it's unnoticed it's a whole different thing. I notice it. Probably the first thing I'll do is just feel uncomfortable, second thing I'll feel is I got no idea how to deal with this one and then I'll just keep going on my way.
Is there general advice you can give to when a microaggression appears where you can deal with it in a sane, caring way but not be completely derail in your course because this person's still teaching biology and they can't be taking a week to go over microaggression. How do you elegantly or effectively handle microaggressions in a real classroom setting?
Elena: I think what's essential for professors to do is to acknowledge and validate that a microaggression has occurred. You don't have to use the word microaggression but instead, what the professor has to do I think is-- I think all of us can easily make it part of our pedagogy because when a student makes a statement, we need to focus on the content of that statement., what was said. I think what's important in dealing with microaggressions is that it's important that we focus on the process, not on the content.
I say not on the content because when students bring things up, it's coming from their experience, their assumptions, their stereotypes, their biases, et cetera. It's a perspective. Obviously, it's a perspective that's offending somebody else's perspective in class. I think what's important is that the faculty person can acknowledge what the student is saying and they can even ask questions to the student, "Well, explain to me more what you mean by what you're saying. Tell me why you believe the way you do or what you're saying."
It's important that if the faculty person is aware that the student is coming from a place of bias or stereotype and the professor is aware that other students in the room are reacting to the student, and some students may react through their body language, some students may react verbally-- It's really important that the professor, even if it's only a biology lesson and not a psychology course or a course where normally faculty can process the students, that you take a moment to acknowledge that and to acknowledge within yourself that there's a reaction to this student.
I see a reaction in class either through a verbal reaction from students or through a nonverbal reaction. Some students are uncomfortable, look down or some students shaking their head. You take a moment to say, "Okay, what Mary just said, I see that there's a reaction in the classroom, I think some of you are nodding your heads, I see some of you are in disagreement, I see some of you have a different opinion."
Especially if you see heads nodding-- that some of you disagree. There may be some disagreement so let's take a moment and have people actually comment on what the person said. Take that moment for the person to-- for them to comment on it because I think pointing out what happens in the classroom and giving students an opportunity to comment on the statement or process it a little even to the extent that you let other views come out that counter the perspective of the student who just unintentionally exhibited a microaggression.
It allows the professor, as a professor would in any kind of dialogue, debate or dialogue when there's difference of opinions in classrooms-- so allow for that to happen, allow for that to come up, take that moment to process a bit around that to clarify the different perspectives and it's not about who's right and who's wrong, but allowing that to come up and to process it a little bit.
What tends to happen is students will often articulate the offense. Why they disagreed or why they found it offensive and if not, if it's just disagreement, then the professor can always can come in with their own interpretation and summarization, and paraphrasing the process and say, "I'm hearing that some of you are feeling offended by this comment and so let's just talk a moment about why this is offensive."
Normally, it's either the professor will have to process that a little bit or sometimes what you can do is you can engage the students to say, "So tell me, what do you think are the differences between what Mary is saying and what Sally is saying? What do you see as the difference between what they're saying? Because Mary doesn't feel that she said anything offensive or she fully feels that this perspective is right, but Mary is feeling offended. What do you think is the difference between their perspectives?"
Engage the students in the dialogue. It's really about dialoguing. I think what happens is a lot of professors feel uncomfortable with dialogue on race, racism, sexism, sometimes even classes because sometimes these issues are around class.
Mathew: I think there's another thing too. There's also at times also just the issue of control depending on how veteran an instructor you are. It's uncomfortable when you don't know what's going to happen the next minute. Just opening it up like that, regardless of the issue can sometimes be scary. Then there's all these other issues that you're bringing up that are can be real hot button ones.
Elena: Especially for courses that aren't geared to specifically focused on this in the curriculum like biology, but where things come up, clearly history professors, sociology professors, psychology professors are social sciences, we're primed to have dialogues around difficult subjects. Oftentimes, in the sciences, you're not. It really is important to take a moment to just-- and even if you see that moment as clarifying, Mary, could you say where you're coming from? Could you say why did you bring that up? What is that about for you or why is that important or what is in meaning for that for you?
Then say, I just want to clarify that. Okay. Now I'm just seeing that there's other people in the room who disagree with that or who may have had different opinion and I'd like to hear from those folks. Let's take a moment on this. This is important because I don't want there to be any confusion.
You take a moment. The professor has control in the sense that you give it 10 minutes. It's amazing what you can process in 10 minutes, and then you say, I want to continue this conversation further next week. In just this brief 10 minutes that we have dialogued around this, important points have been brought up and you can link it to the lesson or it may not be linked to the lesson, but there may be something-- You, as a professor, you go, I'd like to follow up on this next week. Or I'd like to follow up on this next week so, if you could think about this point that Mary brought up and this difference, maybe we you could or journal about it or think about it, I'd like to bring it up.
What a professor can do is the professor can reach out individually to these people, particularly if they're at odds with each other in the classroom. One way to dissipate people arguing is you have to facilitate, okay you have your perspective. This is about your perspective and this is by hearing another perspective as we would in a debate. Take that stance about debate. Here's your perspectives, that's their perspective. Oftentimes, what we often do is remind people that we have different worldviews in the classroom that because we're diverse, we're going to have different worldviews and we have different experiences when it comes to race relations and race and ethnic perspectives.
Just highlighting that those differences exist and I'm hearing and acknowledging that-- right now I'm hearing those differences in the classroom coming out right now. We can acknowledge that no matter what kind of professor we are. Sometimes the biology professor, people in the sciences, they'll think that they can do that. They can acknowledge that these differences are there and they're coming out and see the differences so that doesn't get into this ugly conversation between two people.
A faculty member has to monitor that in such a way that they remind people what's going on. That I'm hearing different worldviews here. I'm hearing different ethnic and cultural perspectives. This is important. I want to take a few moments so we can hear this perspective. Okay, Mary. All right, now John, I see that you're shaking your head, would you like to comment? Or others who disagree or others who have some reaction to Mary's statements, please comment, now's the time. I want to take this moment. Then if they don't, then say that's okay.
What I always do is I always follow up if there is offensive, insulting kinds of things that happened in my classroom and microaggressions is one of those that I've addressed in some form or fashion, I will always follow up. So the faculty person can follow up with a student who-- with the person who made the microaggression and for those who felt offended. Follow up with emails the next day, that evening.
Ask those students to come to see you in your office and process more. Bring it up. Ask them to think about it, about the discussion that happened and you want to continue the conversation the next day when people had a chance to think. Ask them to think about the different perspectives and what are the differences between Mary's and Sally's perspective. Let's talk about this more next week. Those kinds of things.
Mathew: There's a couple of things I want to ask you about. All this is fantastic. One of the things, you addressed this a bit was I think one of the fears is how to get started with that conversation. The fear is specifically, well someone's already pissed off, the receiver of the microaggression. The one who was spouting the microaggression, there's a fear that if I start, if I singled them out in some way now instead of having one pissed off person, I have two pissed off people in the classroom and it's all going to go to hell in a hand basket.
I'm wondering how do you open up this conversation without those two people feeling more uncomfortable or-- uncomfortable, is the wrong word because, but without feeling threatened by you? You're calling them out and does this make sense at all? You might start something you do that makes people feel like they need to speak to what they do and yet they're still being cared for. It's still a safe environment.
Elena: Yes. What I do is I validate the person who's committed the microaggression. I validate their perspective in the sense that I don't say that they're right and wrong because it's not about being right and wrong. It's not about making them feel they're right and wrong. It's, I validate what they're saying in the sense that I've asked them to explain, to share more about their perspective, to explain what they felt, and I invite other perspectives because I say that people may not agree.
You're absolutely right. I don't single out the people in the room who felt offended and insulted by the comment. I don't single them out, but I see that that's happened. I see that that's happened because I see expressions, heads nodding, shaking, facial expressions, body language. Faculty need to be sensitive to that. That's harder to do when nobody's speaking out against Mary's microaggression. Instead, you can feel they feel it, but they're not commenting. They're being quiet. They're being silent about it and they're being silent about it for various reasons.
I can talk about why people-- the catch 22 for students of color or women or LGBT individuals to comment on microaggressions. There's a catch 22. You're darned if you do and you're done of you don't. We have to realize that not all students are going to speak up.
Sometimes that really puts the onus on us as a faculty member. What's important for us to do is to go to Sally and say, "Sally, can you say more about that? Where that perspective coming from" and realizing that, "Do you think that this perspective might have something to do with your experience and your background in some way?" Getting students to look at the fact that their backgrounds and their cultural backgrounds and their experiences shaped this perspective that they have.
When the students of color or women, LGBT, whoever see that you, as a professor, have taken a moment to comment on this microaggression with the student who just made the microaggression to help him or her examine their thought processes and their perspective and where it's coming from, it may give them an opportunity to be more courageous to say, yes, I agree with the professor, Mary, and when you said that, I felt this. What you're not taking into account is that when Latinos go through these experiences, this happens.
That's whatŐs happened in my class, that's what's happened, but I've acknowledged the person with the microaggression in such a way I've taken a moment and I've acknowledged that microaggression has happened without directly doing so, it's an indirect approach. Sometimes I'll even say, well, I think it's important for you to think that that may not be the perspective of all people. That's your perspective. Think for a moment that a person who is in that situation and who's Latino may see it and feel it differently.
I think it's important to do that, but sometimes I'll even go a step further and say that and oftentimes, that'll give an opening for the other students to say something. We are about faculty. We have to allow for these conversations to come and open up in the classroom. We often have to give the opening. Some classes, there's going to be students saying a lot of microaggressions and if we continue to ignore them and not say something about them and not take a moment to ourselves challenge what the student is saying or get the students to look at what they're saying in a different kind of way, then we are complicit in avoidance and denial and not addressing the issue.
Mathew: Also it's highly unlikely, the problem's going to go away.
Elena: It won't go away.
Mathew: It may just keep growing.
Elena: It will keep growing. What's going to happen is the other students who are feeling offended are going to continue to be upset and not feel comfortable that you as a professor are going to be addressing these issues. They may or may not feel comfortable bringing it up to you. They'll bring it up to their advisor, they'll bring it up to other professors they trust, they'll bring it up to other students and so that's where they'll bring it up because they got to take us somewhere.
When you feel offended and insulted, it's internalized. It doesn't feel good. It affects you, it's distressing, so you have to get that out somewhere. You have to talk about that somewhere and believe you me, they're doing that. I've had lots of students come to me as an advisor to talk about the microaggressions they've experienced, the offenses they've experienced by other students and by professors.
It does come out, it has to come out somewhere. It's really important that the professor find a way to open up the conversation. That's one scenario where the student says something and the other students say nothing, but you know there's been an impact. You know there's been a microaggression, there's been an impact. Another scenario is a student speaks up and a microaggression has occurred in the classroom, other students speak up about that, they disagree with the student and now you've got a dialogue going. Now the opening is there and we need to walk in as professor, we need to take a step in that opening and not be afraid to do that. A lot of faculty are afraid.
Mathew: Shut it down probably [unintelligible 00:33:25]
Elena: They shut it down. They minimize it. This is not what we're talking about. I don't want us to get off track here today, we have a lot to cover. There's all these reasons, good reasons that faculty feel that they don't want to get into that mess. That racial issue, that ethnic and racial and cultural issue but I'm saying this is an opening and the opening is where we engage and we take a moment. We take 10 minutes, even 10 minutes can be a lot and then you can bring closure to it and you can continue it later.
The moment is you engage in a debate and you have each-- just pretend that all of a sudden you're in a debate and you're going to give each side time to express what they think and feel and where they're coming from and why. You thank everybody and you acknowledge the different perspectives. If people are having a hard time hearing each other, you can say, it seems like, Mary, you're having a hard time hearing Sally and why she felt-- not only why she disagreed with you but that she felt it offensive and why she felt that offensive. It seems really hard.
These more open dialogue like this, this is where you can engage their perspectives of other students, and ask other people to say, "What do you think is going on here?" "Any other ideas of how-- What do you think about what Mary is saying?" Oftentimes, it happens in an open dialogue if faculty allow themselves to go there for just a few minutes is other students will contribute so much.
Other wise students will go, Mary, I see what you're saying, but I think what you're not looking at is the fact that as a White woman, it's easy for us to do X, Y, and Z because nobody's going to look at us in those disparaging ways and treat us that way but what Sally is saying, as a Latina, itŐs not easy for her. I think that sometimes, we as White women, don't see that and that's all she's asking you. Sally will go, "Oh, okay." You see what I'm saying?
Mathew: Yes.
Elena: Sometimes we can utilize--
Mathew: There is a group intelligence.
Elena: There's a group intelligence, exactly. We don't feel as faculty is so important. The faculty should not feel they have to solve it. It's not a problem to be solved. It's not a right or wrong. Let's not get caught up on the content, it's the process. The content is true for those different people. The content is true. White folks have a different reality around race and cultural and gender issues than students of color. That difference has to come out. It's about understanding the differences, it's not about who's right and who's wrong.
I think it's important to correct facts if we need to but I think it's about the process. It's about engaging in the dialogue so that there's understanding and sensitivity and awareness. That's our goal. Faculty need to think pedagogically, "Okay, I've got this lesson that I'm getting out there today, but oops, here's a moment that I'm going to take to facilitate understanding, awareness and sensitivity."
Maybe if we think about it that way, that that's what we're doing, that might help us to not be afraid and to use our pedagogical skills because as faculty, we're always facilitating discussions and conversations. Right?
Mathew: Absolutely. I want to ask you a complementary question then. Let's pretend the author of the microaggression so to speak, is the professor. Maybe I said something to one of my students with the intent to compliment him or her or perhaps I was just frustrated in the moment and said something to them, which wasn't a compliment, but it came out of frustration.
Probably in the class, I don't fully recognize it but let's pretend after class, I'm walking home or I'm talking to a friend and this emerges and either the friend says something to me or I inside myself go, "Oh my God, what did I do?" What would you suggest? I think, professors, we're guilty of microaggressions too at times. What would you say is the best way to handle that? Let's say when I returned to the classroom the next time we meet, what would you suggest I do?
I know it would be perfect if I recognized it in the moment and dealt with it at the moment but a lot of times, that doesn't happen. If it was this, where I noticed it after class reflection, then coming back because for most of us, we want to look good, so we would just hide it.
Elena: Two things that you're-- This is a really good issue that you're raising. Let me take the, what do we do when the student brings it up to us in the classroom? That's happened to me, by the way, as a faculty of color, teaching this, doing these courses that I do on multicultural counseling, I have perpetrated microaggressions myself. We all do. This is what I hope people listening realize, we all do. We all have our biases and our prejudices, they are there.
Particularly stereotypes are very deep in us and they're hard to get rid of. The most important thing we need to do in the classroom is we need to model owning that we made the microaggression. That's the first thing, is to not get defensive, stay calm because you're modeling how difficult it is to be aware of that. See, what I meant? We all can be perpetrators as well as have that happen to us. Here's an example.
We want to show that we're open and receptive to owning this and to talking about it and so we need to address it. What I do is I own it. I say, help me understand how that was a microaggression for you. Explain that to me more. This gives the students an opportunity to say more about that, where it's coming from and why it's coming, and why they felt it was offensive and insulting.
That the teaching moment. I use that as a teaching moment. I'm modeling [chuckle] but I'm also saying, "Tell me more. Help me, explain to me more" because obviously, I wasn't aware or sensitive to that, and I say that. Then it becomes a teaching moment because other students see how to react to being confronted in doing a microaggression. When one is confronted, whether it's after class or with friends as you're walking down the street or they're having dinner or whatever, that first and foremost, you need to own it, and you need to acknowledge it, and then learn yourself, tell me how-- what I did wrong and explain that to me or how did I do that?
I'm going to give you a great example that has to do with gender. My classroom has more women than men. We have a few men in our program. I have this class, there's two or three guys and there's this one very verbal guy who's always raising his hand, who always has something to say, who's pretty domineering, to be honest. That could be a stereotype, right? White men being domineering. That could be a stereotype as well. So, I'm acknowledging this even saying that right now.
Mathew: Right.
Elena: This guy always there, and so lots of times I ignore him, and I call on other people or look for other people or I'll say his name. I'll say, "John", for the sake of argument, "John, hold on. I want to give other people opportunities [crosstalk]." One day, I was allowing John to hold forth, and the women called me on it. One woman, one brave woman said-- called me on a class. She said, "You know what? You have been giving John preferential treatment all day in class a I feel offended and annoyed because I feel like this is privilege, you know, you're privileging him."
She was very eloquent in the way she said it and I was like, "Wow" And I was taken aback because I consider myself very fair and equal, and what I realized was that because men were a minority in my class, I wanted to make sure they were being heard.
Mathew: Yes.
Elena: Right?
Mathew: Yes, that's natural.
Elena: Yes. I go, "Wow, Karen, I'm so glad you brought that up. Thank you. So can we take a moment and talk about this, this is really great." I used that as a teaching moment to get into to my-- I said, I wasn't intending to do that, because instead. I said, "Well, this is very interesting. Let's talk about this because these guys, these three men are a minority in the classroom." And I feel as an instructor that I need to be sensitive to the minority, in this case, men, but you're right. These are men, and they're also-- but because the other two were actually men of color, right. And John, being the only White man in the room has a certain privilege and status in society.
I can see how you were-- I wasn't intending to do that, but I could see how-- but first, I asked her to explain more of how she saw that, she very eloquently gave me her feminist analysis and I was like, "Yes, I can see that." I acknowledged, I validated her experience. I explained my unintentional-- I explain things that were operating in me, were I may be coming from. I asked John to comment on what he thought about this. I asked the other men to comment, I asked the other women and it became this great conversation. Would that be a good example?
Mathew: Yes, it's a great example.
Elena: Of a microaggression that she felt. She felt that I was privileging him, in particular, a man in class. Another example is there were times, to stay on that scenario, that John made comments in class that we're on the verge of sexism and where I would comment to him on. I would do what I was suggesting earlier in terms of, I would get him to comment more because I could see the women were rolling their eyes, and they were shaking their heads.
So, that's another example of a microaggression based on gender and or in sexism. I think that class, in particular, was difficult for John because he was the only White man in the room. Right? So, I wanted to be sensitive, but sometimes we can be sensitive too much and our sensitivity can cause reactions in students, which is fine, teachable moment. That's an example of where I owned my piece in it. Then I use it as a teaching moment to examine and hear the different perspectives, and then I did a summary and spoke about what I learned.
Mathew: Nice.
Elena: That was an example.
Mathew: What I'm inferring from all of this perhaps incorrectly is that, if by whatever means you notice as an instructor that you've committed a microaggression doesn't matter whether it's intended or not, that whether it's that day in class or whether it's at the next class, somehow owning it, right? I think and then having a short conversation about it can go a long way.
Now if we leave microaggressions on the side, I'm just thinking a lot of times as instructors we get in trouble if we become too defensive that is, like we're perfect somehow like we have to uphold this. It could be about microaggressions, but it could be just about experts in our content, right? Or being that defensive kind of thing. So, your suggestion is really nice about owning it. My guess is what would happen the vast majority of times was you garner more respect from students, not less.
Elena: Absolutely, because you're giving them the message that you are open to talking about these difficult issues. That you're not afraid to talk about racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, et cetera, that you're open to this. I think this is particularly important for faculty in the social sciences but equally important for faculty in the sciences because oftentimes they don't deal with this content area as much as the rest of us do. Giving that-- but you're giving that message, students are going to be perceiving you differently. So they may then come to you-- what that will allow students to do is come to you, to email you their comments and their feedback.
Mathew: Oh, yes.
Elena: To go visit you during office hours, to ask to speak with you later, and because I've modeled this in different ways with my classes, I also tell students, please come to me, to email me if you're having difficulty, any difficulties or uncomfortably with this class and what's said in the class or what's happened in the class or anything, but that's because I deal with multicultural counseling. I deal with these issues in class directly. I have to say that.
A lot of faculty want their students to come to them for questions and stuff, and in fact, students won't, but they will and they'll if you bring these things up if they see that the faculty person is open to it. This is a big way for them to see they're open to it. Students have also made assumptions about you, as a faculty person, in terms of where you stand, what is your-- where you stand, your positionality, if you will, around race, class, LGBT, all these issues of diversity. Where you stand.
Are you somebody that is going to be open in sensitivity and flexible to discussing and talking about it or are you going to be somebody who's going to minimize it, shut it down, and be afraid? For diverse students in these in these groups, they really need to feel comfortable, to know that the faculty person, their advisor is going to be open to talking about these issues. That you're somebody they can talk to you about this or else they're not going to because they've had lots of experiences of opening up or saying something just to be attacked, to be shut down or minimized.
Mathew: Or ignored.
Elena: Ignored and minimized. Exactly. That's hurtful. That's just as hurtful as the microaggression itself, the reaction to them. So, then it's yet another experience of where they've been shut down and hurt. For people who've experienced lots of microaggressions over time, it becomes accumulative, and they get very tired, and they get very worn. It has a lot of psychological impacts, which is why a lot of students may not bring things up in class because it's like, why bother? Nothing's going to happen. Basically, what we're doing as faculty is we're developing trust in our students. This is one way we develop trust.
If you think about your ethically different friend, how you're going to develop trust in that person is by being open and owning your biases, your faux pas, your microaggressions or whatever with that person. That's going to make that person much more and more comfortable to bring up other things with you. Not only that, but just to share their experience, parts of their experience that they've probably never shared before.
The thing with cross-ethnic and racial relationships, we have friends from different ethnic backgrounds, but oftentimes, those friends don't really, really tell us everything and don't really share their close reality with us because they're not sure we can understand or handle it or appreciate it or be empathetic with it. We only know pieces of them.
I say this because through my classes, students will come to me saying, "Wow, through this class, I've learned so much. Now I have brought up conversations with my ethically different friends that I've never had before. In doing so, I am learning so many things that I didn't know before." I would say to them, "Well, how come you never told me this?" Their ethnically different friend will say, "Because you never asked" or "I didn't think you were interested" or "I'm not sure you would have been sensitive to that" or "I was afraid to tell you." You see?
Mathew: Yes.
Elena: I think we need, as faculty-- I'm really glad we're having the conversation because I think more and more, we need faculty training around understanding of microaggressions, talking about our own experiences with diverse people and then not just be an academic exercise. I think what the teachings of the center, CTE can do and what you've begun to do that is so important is to have these trainings and discussions and conversations around inclusive classrooms, around managing and handling microaggressions, but even so, just continuing to have dialogue around diversity so we can understand each other's diverse experience. It's just that simple.
We also I think we need to think about how we can interject this, integrate this into our pedagogy no matter what we teach, but also, I think we need to offer opportunities for our faculty to develop facilitation skills because these are difficult dialogues sometimes, oftentimes. The facilitation skills around talking about microaggressions--
Mathew: I think the word that you bring up that's really important is their skills. It's unfair for us to expect that everybody comes here as a new faculty member or even having taught somewhere else, they can magically have those skills. It's something you have to have practiced, made mistakes with, practiced some more. Probably, most of us haven't had that kind of skill practice, and we really need it.
Elena: Exactly. Even us, psychologists and counselors, who have skills in facilitation of groups, don't necessarily have the skills of facilitating difficult dialogues like this. We don't, so I think all faculty need to realize where's your expertise and where's your limitations and where do you need to grow? Self-reflection on our own as faculty, where do we need to grow? Humbleness. We call it cultural humility. Humbleness, being humble. I think one of the most important things about multicultural competency, if you will, which is a general phrase that's used for everything, kind of like social justice is a general phrase, what does social justice really mean? It can be different for different people?
Multicultural competency can be different, but clearly, what it means is I think one of the central components of multicultural competency is humility, cultural, ethnic, and racial and cultural humility. It's okay just to recognize that we don't know, that we don't know everything about all the diverse students and ethnic groups that we're dealing with, that we often don't know that we ourselves are part of this interaction of where we could offend somebody and we can be offended. I've been offended lots of times and pick and choose often how and when I deal with that.
Sometimes, I don't even deal with it at all. I just let it go, but I think just raising awareness in our faculty, to not be afraid to engage, to start where you are at, to be where you're at, to acknowledge where you're at, to acknowledge your limitations, and just take the first step, which is, "Okay, I'm going to attend more CTE faculty trainings. I'm going to attend. I'm going to listen to this conversation we're having. I'm going to attend a workshop and I'm going to think about one little thing I can do in my classroom that can facilitate this or just promise myself that next time it comes up, I'm going to take a step amd venture forth and try to process this a little bit."
It's okay if I make a mistake because you can always own it. You can always own the mistake with students, process with students, get student feedback, and have students help you with it. You're not the only one that has to raise awareness and deal with this issue. Engage the other students in the conversation who aren't offended or who see it differently. Get them to see the different perspectives inside and help them. I think that's the best we can do.
Mathew: Well, Elena, I asked the best questions I could and you've been wonderfully generous with your time and your expertise. I really appreciate it. This is wonderful. We all have our comfort levels and our discomfort levels, but I think the only way for us, any of us to get better as educators is to start exploring those particular areas where we're not very comfortable and that's how we grow. You've given some wonderful, wonderful suggestions today because I think USF and university campuses in general, in America are only going to become more diverse, not less diverse in the coming years, so the need to develop these skills is only going to increase.
Elena: Absolutely. Thank you for your great questions. I hope that what I've said is helpful and at least directs our great faculty to march ahead with dealing with diversity in the classroom and outside the classroom. Thanks.
Mathew: Fantastic. Thank you very much.


File name: Elena Flores on Microagressions.mp3
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